Prime Venture Partners Podcast

This Genius built a ~800 Crore Startup (Bootstrapped & Profitable) with Mukri, Founder ZopSmart

• Prime Venture Partners: Early Stage VC Fund • Season 1 • Episode 138

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In this podcast episode, Amit Somani speaks to Mukesh Singh a.k.a Mukri (Founder of ZopSmart) a winner of the ‘Economic Times Comeback Kid Award Winner, 2023’. 

Mukri is a maverick entrepreneur who has staged an unimaginable dramatic pivot shutting down a 70%-80% revenue business to focusing on a newer product based on market estimation and gut. 

He talks about his inspiration from ‘Lego’ and ‘Intel’ to have made the most important decision in building this mammoth ~800 Crore company at ~70%-80% margins! 

Another valuable piece he shares on the US GTM strategy including how he does 300 hours of preparation before every customer meeting. This episode is a rollercoaster enlightening current and future entrepreneurs in the most remarkable way. 

Tune into this episode to get inspired, learn and traverse across a marvelous entrepreneurial journey.

Listen to the podcast to learn more about:

0:00 - Entrepreneurial Journey With Mukri Singh
4:10 - Discovering Self and Startup Lessons
14:42 - Entrepreneurship Journey
19:00 - Challenges and Opportunities in E-Commerce / Retail
28:53 - Importance of Core in Business Strategy
36:59 - Value Over Uniqueness in Startup Growth
49:09 - Entrepreneurial Insights and Reading Habits

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Mukri:

If you really want to understand a tiger, you have to go to the jungle, and but if you really have to monetize the tiger, then you build up a zoo.

Amit Somani:

So, founders that are listening to this, this is absolute, not gold, platinum.

Mukri:

Altogether we will be north of 100 million. It's like almost a 70 to 80 percent margin businesses. If I had the magic wine and if I have to stop it, I'll put a legal ban on secondary. It's really a Hi. My name is Mukesh, most called as Mukheri. I come from a place called Bukharvastri city, which is now in the state of Jharkhand, but formerly Bihar. So when I grew up I'm a typical Bihari and I am the founder of this company, zopsmart. Zopsmart is into retail tech. We work with a bunch of offline retailers and help them with their omnichannel journey, and we almost all about like 500 people, mostly based out of Bangalore, with small office in New York and Singapore.

Amit Somani:

Welcome to the Prime Venture Partners podcast. I'm delighted to have with me today Mukesh Murf, mukri Singh, a dear friend and a very celebrated entrepreneur. Welcome to the show, mukri. Thanks, amit, great to be here. So Mukri and I go back a long ways. We met each other in Bangalore in the late 2000s, right the first decade, and then we just kind of hung around and then we happened to become roommates and then colleagues that make my trip. So but before we come to that, mukri, why don't you tell us why you're called Mukri and maybe a little bit of your journey you know, before you got into Amazon India as one of its first employees?

Mukri:

Well, the reason, like it's interesting, you talk about the name Mukri, right? So there are two of us, me and another very good friend called Abhishek Mishra, and both of us literally grew up together. Like nursery we were together and the original name Mukri is based on. There used to be a comedian in like late 70s, early 80s, called as Mukri, right? So for some reason Abhishek Mishra thought that I look like him and that's how the name came right and, interestingly, both of us stuck together till like 12th grade. So all of us aware of the 84 riots, right.

Mukri:

So we were in a Sadarka school school go means in public school and then we shifted. That time I thought that, hey, now I'm done with Mukri, I'll go back to Mukesh. But then again he also shifted to the same school. Again I went back to Mukri. We went to college together and college I thought maybe now the name Mukri is out and then Mukesh will stick around. But my role number was 93144. And Mukesh Bansal, the mentor guy, his role number was 93143. So only one Mukesh could exist. So he got the Mukesh name and I got Mukri and then since that it has stuck like that. Honestly I like that name better than Mukesh. So if somebody call me Mukesh, something like a little too formal.

Amit Somani:

Yeah, exactly, yeah, no, fantastic. So tell us, you know you've been dabbling with startups all your life and I know you went to IIT, kanpur, and then you went to MIT. So talk to us about just sort of your first sort of flirting or flirtations with startups and what inspired you, even as an employee or as a founder.

Mukri:

So the first I learned it like the lessons of startup the hard way. So my first startup, which was Zoresis, this was into interactive animation and the reason why I did that was to make money. And this is like late 90s. Everybody was making money on building something. So I said at that time I remember my stipend was like $1400. So I said, hey, I am the funnick, how can I get $1400? And there are people who are making millions. So I wanted to make money and honestly, that's the reason why I did the first startup and I always advice like that time I'm not sure, I'm pretty sure we would have read that book in. What is the dilemma? Of course, they always say that don't ever do a startup to make money and I have learned it the hard way. The first startup that I did was to make money, and that's a startup where it never made money. So the first startup, interestingly, was to make money and ironically, we didn't make money in order for different reasons and we'll be probably towards the end. We can talk about that one.

Mukri:

But then I realized that the journey of the startup is very interesting Personally. For me it was that, hey, it helps me understand myself, like, how do I handle stress, so on and so forth Right, so that motivated me that let me join a startup. So I joined a early stage startup called as EGIN Communications, did that for good four years, learned a lot of things, kind of thing. And then I realized that personally, for me, while there is some money towards the end, so on and so forth, but startup is the perfect way to understand yourself. Like, if I want to really know who I am, probably I feel that this is the right one because it puts me in very tough scenarios and in those tough scenarios, understand like really who real the Muckri is, kind of thing. So, and then it happened like EGIN happened.

Mukri:

Then I decided to come back to India. Then I did another animation startup. Then, pure accident, I landed up at Amazoncom, did that for good five years. Then I met you at Make my Trip and then again I started Zop. Now Zop, smart, kind of thing. So for me to always have been startup is the best way to discover yourself.

Amit Somani:

Wonderful. So I want to go double click on both of these right. One is don't do it for money, and so you know what are some of the other reasons beyond discovering yourself, and I do want you to elaborate on you know, what has it taught you about yourself? Because you've done now many students including ads of now and Zop smart itself right. It's like two innings.

Mukri:

So some of things I would say now I'm 48. So some of these things have changed and I have a habit of writing, so sometimes I'll go back to my writing of like what I wrote in 2000, kind of thing. But right now, if you ask me, Mukri at 48, what I'm thinking? Of course it has changed and I won't be surprised Mukri at 55 have a slightly different viewpoint. Some of it is consistent, I would say. So I'll go back to this.

Mukri:

Well, in the current religious environment this may not be the most appropriate poem, but that's what comes to my mind, so I'll say that out. So there's a poem by Agye right Senai ho jayenge par mare, jayenge ravan Vijayi ho jayenge raman aur jo pul banayenge tihas mein bandar ke laenge. So don't take it in the pure religious destiny, right. But my take is that eventually, statistically it's proven that you should never do a start of a money and you have been at Google's one and so forth. I can guarantee, I'm pretty sure that probably the Google money would have been probably much easier than many other money. That's there.

Mukri:

And I can say and I can say the same about Amazon. Like, when I joined, amazon was at like 24, 25 bucks, and now you see where it is. Kind of. So for me, like it, besides discovering myself, right, I see that if you are going for a startup or someone of these things anyways, it's a crazy idea. Some of it is also stupid, right, but this gives you an opportunity to be a part of the history book, Right. So for me, if I look into it, right as a founder, right as a guy who's starting that company, this is your opportunity.

Mukri:

That, hey, 200 years down the line, somebody will say, hey, there was a time when e-commerce was nascent and there was these sets of people who were trying to do something in grocery. These are the mistakes on and so forth, kind of thing. So for me, it is like, hey, something that I'm passionate about, which gives me the opportunity to be a part of the history book, motivates me, kind of thing. That, hey, money, certainly. If it comes, perfect. If it does not come, that's fine. But the fact that this gives me an opportunity to be a part of the history book is something that excites me, kind of thing, and I would say that is another big reason why I would do that.

Amit Somani:

Yeah, it's spot on. And we often you know people in the role that I'm at now at Prime Ventures right, people come up and say you know, I'm done with corporate, I'm done with this, I'm going to do a startup. I'm like okay, so what are you going to do the startup on that? I don't know, but I'm going to do a startup. I find that to be a terrible idea, right, like you really need to know what is your motivation? What are you passionate about? You know, what is it that you have some insight on? Because otherwise you'll get into that trap of oh you know, I want to make money, or perhaps even I want to be famous or whatever, and that's not how you're going to build a large, successful company. It's not going to happen.

Amit Somani:

So, okay, so, so, moving along, you know, let's talk a little bit about the just at least, I'm very curious about the Jeff Bezos and Ganesha story, or just some of the early lessons from. You know, amazon and Bezos, because you were, I think, one of the first single digit employee number in Amazon India.

Mukri:

Amazon India was technically the third employee. Okay, it was started by Amit Agarwal, who was again two years senior to me, from IIT Kanpur, and Bharat was there. Bharat Vijay had done Yahoo India, so some within some sense of bringing the Amazon culture. Bharat was bringing the India experience kind of thing, and I was literally the first head after that. In fact, the first office we didn't even have an office, it was a cubicle from E4E Labs, divasree chambers, and there were two cubicles. Sometimes you will do even the musical chairs that the first two person who comes gets the cubicles, kind of thing. But so, yes, so the initial, if you look at 2004, right is when I joined Amazon India right and literally started that one right. That was also the initials days of AWS. So Andy Jesse, I think, was still a director I'm not sure if he was a VP candidate and he will make trips to India and debate about what exactly is AWS. And then we used to do all the small conferences in over a, so on and so forth.

Mukri:

So the first thing that was surprising and refreshing for me was the vision that, if you look in 2004, amazon that at that time was just known as what we used to call as BMVD right, books, music video and DVD. Right, a pure retailer wanting to get into cloud and cloud was not even defined Like people will say, hey, what is that? At least cloud kind of thing. So that to me looked like hey, man, this is really really, really audacious, right, because logically, if you look into it, right, one could have imagined in 2003, four, that probably Microsoft or a Google and so on and so forth, with the right set of people to even think about it, right. So the first thing, the first word actually that comes to my mind when I think about 2004, amazon, right is the audacious part. It's not that the company was doing fantastically well, right, the stock price was at like 26, 27, and certainly it has worked to my favor. The company was barely profitable, like not sure whether and then to take an audacious goal like this right, it was incredible right, and that's something that's hey.

Mukri:

Even within a large organization, this kind of culture exists because the thought process was that, hey, once the organization is above 2,000, 3,000 or people, then innovation cannot happen. So the first one that comes to my mind is audacious. And second is the freedom, the amount, freedom and giving people the authority. Andy, jesse was not a software engineer. I don't even think Andy ever wrote a single line of code. Right, and it's brilliant, guys, how about it? You get it so on and so forth, right, and I think that such an audacious goal is trusted with somebody right, and he is given the full freedom to execute. That was another big learning that I have that like. Many times it happens that, hey, my core focus is retail, let the best people be there in the retail world right. But the fact that the best set of engineers were getting a look at it for AWS, right, and the results are obvious now, right. 20 years down the line, if you look at it, one can argue that Amazon is probably more AWS now than the Amazoncom.

Amit Somani:

Oh for sure, Certainly from a profitability perspective, maybe not revenue.

Mukri:

So those, I would say, were the first few things at this thing and, of course, the huge amount of data, like prior to that had worked at multiple startups. But the amount of data that was there and the ability to play with that data whether it was search, anything like that I knew that, like this company, has a lot of some X factor.

Amit Somani:

It certainly had that, absolutely no. I've learned a lot about Amazon from you, even back when we were at make my trip, I think the you know famous six pager. The right, the press release a year in advance. I remember you saying you had to assemble your own furniture even in an Indian context where there's no IKEA and the frugality. So there are so many interesting I can't even imagine what it must have been like to do that.

Prime Venture Partners:

So yeah, fantastic.

Amit Somani:

So tell us now we'll switch gears and talk maybe a bit about the founding of Zop now, that story, and then you know, more interestingly, as we, as we progress into the, pivoting into Zop smart. Yes, yes, yes, you have a perfect, perfect reminder. I was going to ask you about Zop smart, but let's talk about briefly about Zop now as well.

Mukri:

Yes. So this was like almost towards like I had spent two years at make my trip and I was thinking what snakes kind of thing and, as you rightly mentioned, it had to be driven by either a personal pain point or passion kind of thing, and typically both of them are attached. Like you go through a pain point and say why can't this be done? And then you, you go and execute that phone and some of it maybe may sound stupid, but that's how it starts. So this fire starting of Zop now was was this is like the year 2011. And we were expecting our first kid well, the only kid now we ever right and Julie, my wife. She was like six months pregnant. We used to live in your mother, we used to live at that sonar road kind of thing, and there was a retailer called Easy Day. They had a partnership. The Bharti Walmart partnership was there.

Mukri:

And me and Julie, we're like number six or number seventh in the queue of buying a grocery and the guy in front, the first guy right, was fighting with the cashier for like two rupees change. Right, he didn't have two rupees change, the cashier was giving him two rupees of a class and then this entire fight was happening that, hey, I don't own the class, I want the two rupees change one, and so forth. And that is when it stuck me that hey, everything that I need in this basket, whether it's the Ashirabad or anything like that, right, I exactly know what I want and this is not pleasurable. So is there a way this can be online? So that was the sort of the starting point that hey, it was a real pain point kind of thing. I remember that specific incident. I was like really frustrated and I said, hey, let's do this one kind of thing.

Mukri:

Of course, like both of us have lived in the various I had new, the Vandibhaka story, like losing billions of dollars, was certainly there, right, but I strongly feel that the fact that there is a demand for this one and if you can get the logistics and the operations thing right, we should be able to make a reasonable business kind of thing. So, again, even on Excel, we were never sure that this will make money or not, so and so forth. But I felt that there is a chance and in fact, that's the reason why, if you look into it, the name was Zopnow, which is a twist on shop. Now this is 2011, right, so Flipkart and Snapdeal were the two big boys of e-commerce, right, and even then the deliveries were like T plus two or T plus five days, right, some of the orders are booked on Monday and the best case scenario on Wednesday, thursday, friday or going to get the book. So we said that worst case, if we can build the same day delivery network, which is where the word now comes into picture that itself can be valuable.

Mukri:

So there was a backup plan, but the thought process was let's make sure, with the high density, so on and so forth, can be worked out, and that's how sort of Zopno started. So not a very detailed analysis, because I was very sure, with the web band back up, whatever analysis we are going to do, eventually the number like it will say that, hey, probably don't do that one. And I, by that time, I was fully aware that, like, a bunch, of entrepreneurship starts with stupidity and then eventually get the sanity part. So let's start with the first set of stupidity and then eventually we'll figure out the part to sanity. So that's how the Zopno story started.

Amit Somani:

I remember all you to give me this offer to come see one of your early warehouses and I don't think I ever came my loss. But it was supposed to be a full stack model, so it's not just delivery is limited SKUs, it's instant delivery, etc. And you raised a bunch of money along the, along the course of the journey.

Mukri:

So so, yes, so so the. If you look at the initial list, like and I strongly come from the viewpoint that and by that time I was like 2009, I was like in my mid 30s, right, so I strongly come from the viewpoint that and that time the access to external capital was easy. It's not like it was impossible, but certainly for the first stage, I always feel it's better if you put it in a warm money, because then the sense of seriousness is much more that like none. Not only I'm investing in the time, but I'm also investing in the, in the in the money part skin in the game skin in the game becomes much, much, much this day.

Mukri:

So so so the first model that we did right was the classic warehouse model. Right because and some of it is also reflects on my personality changes over a period of years, so that I was into like early mid 30s kind of thing and there was a desire that I should have control over everything, and that was in some sense reflected in the business model. We had a warehouse model where and we had our own warehouse used to pay the rent, we initially tied up with Metro cash and carry to get the inventory and then, as the volume went up, then we tried with the distributors. We had our own logistics network. We went like we even bought four or five data. I says we had all those things right. So very, very, very capital this thing.

Mukri:

But the good thing that we did at that point of time and again that will be largely due to the five years at Amazon was we invested heavily in tech. So, while there was a capital expenditure of warehouse, drugs or and so forth, but we said that tech is going to be like something that we have to be rock solid on, because I was very clear in the very first, second, third month itself that the only way this can be profitable is if we can use the tech to either improve the top line or the bottom line. So while we did I wouldn't call it stupid, it was a good learning While we did all the capital expenditure and building up the warehouse, but on the same note, we also spend incredible amount of money in building the right tech and that eventually like that's what I that eventually paid off for us. So it started like that and once we did that, we had said very simple goals for ourselves that like so the way I look at the businesses, while there are external money so on and so forth, kind of thing, but eventually we're not able to move them up in a pair of one Right. So eventually it's like businesses like running a family, like if my income is 100 rupees, then hopefully the expenditure should be like 91, 92, you still make 78 rupees, so that for the day, any day, you have something saved, kind of thing.

Mukri:

So we were very clear that the within a specified period of time it has to become profitable, operationally viable, and that we were able to achieve in 18 months, kind of thing. So that focus on the tech helped us achieve that profitability and thanks to the writing right. So whenever, like every year, I look back. Okay, what was the plan for the last year? After 18, 19 months, we were very clear the reason we were profitable it was because of the investment in tech, not the investment in the warehousing, so on and so forth.

Mukri:

And that was the time we took the call that we'll move out of the warehouse business. We will partner with all the large online detailers, offline detailers. So we partnered with Hypersity, moor, starbaza, a bunch of these guys and that certainly took care of, like, reducing our capital expenditure. And that's when the phase two of the journey happened, kind of thing. But literally after like a year, two to this thing, we were operationally always viable, kind of thing.

Amit Somani:

Very interesting, yeah, so what still made you do the hard pivot? From that to software or software only business. First, of course, for India and then, in your new avatar as ZopSmart, for the rest of the world.

Mukri:

Yes. So if you look at it, like, we have been in this thing for like almost like 13 years now, right, so I would say by the year 2013, 14, like, we were operationally viable, we had the warehouse model, but we were very clear that the marketplace is probably the right one to do. Now, again, instacart was also a new kid in the town that time, right, I'm talking about 2013, 14,. Instacart was like very early days for Instacart, right, but we felt that from the model, like India, this is going to work out right and I always believe in a symbiotic relationship. So when we are partnering with the offline retailers, we were seeing that we were adding additional revenue to them. So initially, the offline retailer they worry was will the ZopSmart sales lead to a cannibalization? So, but what we found was that it actually didn't. From a retailer perspective, what was happening was, in India, typical offline retailer, the catchment area is, depending on the location, anyway between three to six, seven kilometers kind of thing. So what the online thing was doing was that was increasing the catchment area to almost like 10 kilometers and remember, it's pi R square. So you are eventually adding up almost two X kind of a customer base. And while there was some cannibalization from the nearby areas, but that was more than that, was more than compensated by the new customers that were getting added right. And even in the nearby areas, people like, if you look at an average Indian grocery basket is like seven to 8,000 depending on the kind of family right. So they were eventually they were buying more and more from the same retailer. So overall we felt that the symbiotic relationship is established and honest. It was working out quite well for us. So that's what's between 2014 and 18. We did that one.

Mukri:

But 2008, 17, 18, what two things happened? One was there was a consolidation in the Indian offline market. So if you look into it, hypersity got acquired by BigBazaar and we had reasons to believe that much like even right now you're seeing bunch of consolidation on BigBazaar is now reliance or wherever. That thing is right, but consolidation was happening, which was not good for our business because we wouldn't want only two place in the marketplace model, kind of thing. So that was one. And secondly, like the, both Amazon and Walmart, via Flipkart, were entering the grocery space, kind of thing.

Mukri:

So we look back at like 2016, 17, 18, there were three online players in grocery rate Zopna was there? Bigbasket, was there? Grofus, was there kind of thing? Right, and definitely amongst the three we had raised the least amount of capital. But on the same note, we had the strength of being operationally viable, right. So we knew that, and while Grofus now Blinkett had soft banks on and so forth, but we had reasons to believe that at some stage sanity will return, people will push for profitability and that will be the time we're in and, anyways, survival was not a problem because we were operationally viable. So we are not too much worried about the survival part right.

Mukri:

But when Amazon and Flipkart entered, walmart at that time entered, kind of thing. We are very sure that this is going to be a very long drawn battle kind of thing, right, fighting the. And we were feeling the heat, let's be honest about that one right, because some of the stuff that they were selling was below the distributed price. So if you look into it, right, depending on the kind of category that you're looking into, you're talking about anything between 10 to 25% margin, and these guys were going below the margin. So we were very clear that at some stage and they had the capacity to stick around for like 15, 20 years, right. So there was no way in this earth we could have managed that one. But on the parallel, zopsmart, which was our tech, right. So think of it like, just like there's an Amazoncom and AWS, for us the plan was there's a ZopSmart the operating system, and ZopNow, which is where thecom is going to happen, right.

Mukri:

So between 2016 to 18, our hope was that we'll do both ZopSmart and thecom business kind of thing right. And at ZopSmart we had like a few customers in India, so more retail chain, which is now a part of Amazon, was one of our customers, so on and so forth kind of thing. So we really realized that money is there, right, and these were good set of money you're talking about like 200 to 500 K USD kind of thing, right which is a good, good, good money. And then these are these are like this platform business was almost a 70, 80, 90% margin business, right. So we were worried about how big is the market is going to be in India, because not too many people in India will pay you like that that kind of money. But there was good amount of learning, right. So our hope was that we will eventually go international and continue to run thecom business in India and India won't be the large market for the software piece and then we'll do the classic SaaS route right, that will go sell this thing, take some upfront fee and start doing the SaaS business one and so forth, right, and we start in 2018, we got some customers in Singapore and that was the first million dollar deal, right. So we said, well, now we have that one, right. So it was a almost like a large chunk was coming in license fee and almost like half a million to 750 K was coming around in the SaaS piece, kind of thing. So good business, so on and so forth. So we felt that he will run both of them right. But when the heat came from the Amazon and Walmart, we said, hey, fighting this India battle on thecom thing is not worth it, just focus on the larger one kind of thing.

Mukri:

And that's where I would say, like, sometimes, like I do read a lot kind of thing. So sometimes, like I always feel as founders, we ignore a lot of thing about history. So I still remember from that era two stories came to my mind and I still there in some of my writings kind of thing, right. So, because when you try to do something but insane, it's always good that hey, if somebody else has done it. So you say so. Two stories I remember came out and that's there in my annual report somewhere, right.

Mukri:

That One comes from my favorite toy, lego. So if you look into Lego, like in just before the world war two. Right, they were into wooden toys, so 90% of their Reminis used to come from the wooden toys and they used to make some plastic here and there kind of thing. But this day and then when there's a, there is, I think it's called as ABS. So there was a kind of plastic that comes, as you know, like when you put the Lego block it clicks, and it is because of the chemical that the kind of plastic that is there, it is, that that's the reason that gives them the stability and durability, so on and so forth, kind of thing.

Mukri:

When that ABS technology came into plastic, they are the founders that that, hey, now I'm not going to move out of the wooden toys and this is the only thing that I'm going to do, right. So imagine, like, letting go 90% of the business and focusing on something which was that small and being convinced that this is going to make it big. Right, that, okay. So there are instances, right then. The other example I clearly remember was Intel. So Intel in the in the early parts they were a memory company, right, and then the Japanese came in the early 80s, right, and Japanese started to take over the memory market. Production cost in Japan was less and then just started to feel the heat right, and then, andy, that's there in the paranoid survive.

Amit Somani:

Only the paranoid survive, only the paranoid survives, right.

Mukri:

He says that, hey, what would be the board? And they were going through a tough time, right. And then he and Gordon says that, hey, they're sitting in a room and they said, hey, if the board like their reason, that the board will fire us, right, and then get a new CEO, right, what will the new CEO do? Right, and they said, let's replicate the same, let's fire ourselves to take. Actually, they went out of the room technically, fired themselves, got back in as new CEOs and the thing that they divorce we are no longer going to be in memory and memory, business was, I think more than even 90% For them and they got into the CPU business, right.

Mukri:

So sometimes the history thing helps because, hey, there are enough instances at least I had two data points that, hey, wherein people had taken away very radical decision because at that time from a volume of business up now was very large, like we were talking about, like Roughly like 400 crore business, 350 to 400 crore, almost once a year, a day, kind of thing, where this was looked like that I was to serve an ear right. And then the greed that, hey, the potential to raise money. They were certainly there in the, in the dot-curve the much after you zepto and all the yeah exactly right.

Mukri:

So, so there was an opportunity never there, but we sell that, hey, if you really believe that the core that we have so I always believe, like, what is the core in any business, there'll be a core, right? If you look at Google, the, whatever they do with the search and this thing, the data is the core and the everything else is sort of a periphery, can I? So what is your core? And you have to. In times of crisis, you have to play on your core, right? So we strongly feel that the core that we had was tech and If we have to take a choice because at that time we had to take a choice, right.

Mukri:

If you have to take a choice and we'll go on the core, not say get rid of it, but if you can't do the dot-com that, move out of the dot-com, focus on the core and the other thing that was clear, right. And this is an interesting analogy. If I have to look into that one, right. If you look, and that's what they're talking about retail in India, right. So I have this theory, right or wrong? Right, if you really want to understand a tiger, you have to go to the jungle, and but if you really have to monetize the tiger. Then you build up a zoo, so pass a, zoom a, but so much now. Tiger top, go jungle jana, play, right.

Mukri:

So if you look into the retail, after the 780 years of hardcore retail in India, india is the best place to learn retail. We have complicated tax laws, we have super demanding customers, we have, like, the MRP regime, so on and so forth, right. So what it helps is to bake, helps you make the right kind of product and the right kind of product, right kind of people. Once the baking is done and this may sound a bit controversial Selling a software in India may not be the most advisable thing. Should be one of your market. It should be one of your market, but certainly not the first market.

Amit Somani:

That? That is one of my big questions I was going to ask you, but before that let me interrupt you for a second. You know you talked about those two history stories, right?

Prime Venture Partners:

What is, you know, the memory chips.

Amit Somani:

Intel going out of that and then let go going out of the wooden toys. But a lot of people would say that you know history might rhyme, but won't repeat right. How do you decide that you're going to be on the side of? You know Making it. You know not just rhyme but repeat right because you could be silly, right?

Amit Somani:

if the CPU business has not worked out for Intel or Some other business are not, you know, sop smart, and not worked out for you. So how do you get that courage of the conviction to say no, no, this this is, you know, this is pattern matching, or this is some level of conviction or some level of data, or some level of gut.

Mukri:

There's certainly an element of God. Nobody can deny that. One like, just for the same, lego this thing right, there are enough and you can say that you take is a classic, will you?

Mukri:

well, could I call so fun same as because I, I because they didn't do it, kind of thing. But there will be enough example that where in you say that if you do it. But that's where the core thing comes right. I strongly believe that if you have the core that you truly believe in, that core eventually will lead you to a right business, absolutely so.

Mukri:

So for us, the most important thing was to be sure that what is our core right? And we didn't have an idea or doubt that the core that we had was the tech right. So even if the sop smart tech business like the way we are and, by the way, the way we had thought it, didn't work out like that Right, like what we had thought and what we are doing right now was, I don't think, what we had thought in 2018 and what we are doing in 2024 right, there are certainly some similarities, but if I have to say how exactly will the 2024 look like, I'll be probably right, like maybe five or ten percent is candlelight. So but the it goes back to what is your core. So let's assume right, the if there's a smart the way we had thought had not succeeded, or in the case of a Lego, in case it had not succeeded.

Mukri:

But if the team is good with the core was good because the core was like making toys, right. If the core was good, if not plastic, they would have done something else. Intel, if not CPU, they would have done something else. So maybe CPU may have been a failure, right. But the fact that they knew that there's my core on top of the core, I'm very sure that they will build the right name. Yeah, the problem is when you don't have the core, because what happens?

Amit Somani:

is. You're not clear on what your core exactly.

Mukri:

Let's assume, like had we thought, that our core is the operations, right, like whatever right. So if at that time you are in a problem because then if you don't have the core or, as it rightly said, if you are not clear what is your core, then there is a huge problem that you're going to sit around. But if you have the core, then I don't see like you may go through two or three experiments to a through this thing, but it will happen.

Amit Somani:

So, so let me, let me ask you a million dollar, probably a hundred million dollar question now, given your scale, which is lot, of, lot of wind. Founders ask us like I'll start a SaaS company or an enterprise software company, I'll build it in India, I'll sell to India, I'll figure it out and then I'll go abroad and I think eight or you know If not nine out of ten of those companies don't make it. You're one of the exceptions that did, and I think you already answered it a little bit in the previous comment that Retail is very difficult. You figure out how to build a retail operating system, etc. But are there examples or our lessons from your journey on where it makes to start here in India and sell to India and make money from India, or where it makes sense to straight away go and start, like if you're building software for you know salons or spas or dentists or XYZ, don't even bother right, go straight to where the target market is, where the target customer is, and go for that.

Mukri:

Yeah, so I'll try it. Well, I'm not that I'm subject matter expert here, but I will start from the. The reason why I advocate not to sell in India some of the software thing that we built is because of the pricing. So what happens is bunch of us like, if you look at many founders, that we come across our first engineers and then the business comes. Probably the Dhanda part comes later and some in some, for some of us it does not come naturally kind of right. So I think the big problem that would be that happens in India for some of the businesses and and I'll try to touch on businesses when in probably it won't be the case right is the pricing part. So what happens is, for the things that we were building in retail, right, I can imagine in many other categories as well, for instance, even some of the consumer things, one and so forth right, india is not the right market to figure out what is the right price, and price is not a very trivial and and If you ignore price, then the entire probability bunch of things will go away, right. So so what happens is if you, if you, let's assume, right, if you start focusing that, okay, I build the product in India. Now let me sell it in India, right, for majority of the business I can guarantee that you'll have the wrong pricing. You may think that hey, this is probably worth like 10 bucks, whereas in reality it is actually worth 100 bucks and that's a lot of money that I believe in it.

Mukri:

So I feel that for, let's assume, for retail, I strongly feel the right pricing and US is overpriced for sure, I know that right. So probably the reality somewhere, since it's always better to come from top. So I start at 100 and then everybody likes her Calco, sorry, but I mean number of pairs up, quite select that right, since always better to find I shouldn't be exorbitant. So I got there. But it's always better to start a bit higher on the pricing part and then reach the truth Than to start at 10 and reached us 80 number kind of thing.

Mukri:

So, and there, india is not the right market to figure out the pricing. So so if you have a product where any feel that the right pricing is getting determined in the US, then it makes sense to start in the US, right? But if the products where and where and again I'm not a subject matter expert, but let's assume, take, for instance, telecom right, a BSN or air teller reliance have to put up all these towers right. The telecom price kind of thing is like I want to standardize. But there there is like that's the method to the madness, right?

Mukri:

So if you are doing something let's say I'm totally making this up, and especially with the current government policies, right? If you're doing something in the semiconductor, so if you're making a Chip also not manufacturing but if you're doing the IP for that one, then maybe the Indian market is the right start, because you have the market. It's a very large market, for sure. The pricing power is sort of identified. So in that case, if you're doing a, let's say, many equivalent of a call-come for India kind of thing, I think yeah.

Mukri:

India will make sense, kind of thing. But if you're building up something like us right, which you're building, a retail platform probably uses the right one. So depending on what are we building, but for majority of the products that I at least, I can think and imagine, I think it's better to use US as the proxy to figure out the pricing. So it's not that you can't sell it in over it, but once you price, once you're labeled that the dust bag, a summon, it's impossible to take it up, kind of things.

Amit Somani:

And I fully agree. You know, I'm also an engineer turned accidental product manager turned accidental. We see now, and one of my big learnings in my last 10 years is Price discovery and even willingness to pay is just as important as what product, what feature, what use case, what ICP, etc.

Mukri:

Because that can define your, your company and here is the other thing which I personally like about the US All part is is having access to data is much easier. So one of the things that in the early days when we're trying to figure out the pricing part for bunch of the modules that we are built up, right, but what is the right pricing? Canada, right, because you go to us, you know that the right price. But can I should I say half a million, 250k, 5 million, 10 million? So the fact that bunch of their annual reports, portal reports, like publicly available, right, it was relatively easier because I can say, hey, let's look at the reports, go through bunch of the YouTube thing that you're talking about and you can say more time, what is this guy is doing? This?

Mukri:

Is you ex billion dollar in online and Looking at less, is you $14 an hour for the labor rate? I think my technology can improve their labor efficiency by 15 percentage, so that's literally like $1.4 or $1.5 an hour kind of thing, and our estimate is they're doing million transactions a day. So there are like 5,000, 10,000 out people. So effectively I'm doing like 10,000, 20,000 of saving every single day, multi-triple, 360, and then you say, okay, roughly, give me 10, 15% of that, so doing that price discovery as well.

Mukri:

There is some method in over that and the benefit analysis and any benefit analysis and so so then when you reach up to a retailer right, you are getting some of those data is much, much, much easier Right. In India we always found it very tough because the numbers like a first of all not very easy to get. So, without naming any of the companies right, try to get the equivalent, like I can tell you right, if you want to get for a respectable US company to do a rough analysis, it's much easier. Try doing that for an Indian company like this. It's kind of you'll never even be able to get to that one Right. So the price discovery in India is super tough, make sense, make sense.

Amit Somani:

You know how about? You know switching gears a little bit in terms of you, you, obviously you. Last year you won the comeback kid of the year award. You know one of the ET Awards. Right, you're handsomely profitable. I think in phase two, the Zop Smart journey, for the most part it's been bootstrapped right. I mean, I know you raise money for Zop now but probably burnt most or all of it, right. So talk to us a little bit about the just the business side of building a profitable bootstrap venture from from somewhat scratch.

Mukri:

And this is the second inning scratch Right. So. So I would say at a when, technically, when we started the option, thankfully I was like, not, thankfully I was over 40, I was like 43, 44, kind of thing, and certainly there was a good amount of failure, so on and so forth I had learned a lot. So one thing I clearly remember when I wrote that up, when I started Zop, zop Smart was like many times we get into the trap of saying that something unique is what the world needs. So as a founder, we are like a unique one. I guess it'll be so.

Mukri:

Unique does not necessarily means great. So for instance and the best example is that that, remember the Ford car, ford itself, ford itself was a very, very, very unique, cut right from the color to everything, shape and but it was a financial disaster kind of thing. So at least in the beginning of Zop, what I was clear was that it's not about making something unique. You make something which is, which adds value, kind of thing, and sometimes you'll be surprised by the. The simple things can add so much more value than the quote, unquote, unique things kind of thing. So when we started with the, the initial Zop Smart, the bootstrapping, so on and so forth. Right, I would say some of the very simple things were the one that was making a good amount of money, and simple things can be as simple as this. Right Like, I'll agree, very simple example right that, now that I look into it, it makes so much sense.

Mukri:

Right that, across the globe, right Like, the blue card workforce is not the most well-advocated set of people. Right, most of the apps, let's assume, in the grocery world, people will build up a picking app. Right that wherein a picker will be given that, hey, this is XYZ order and there's the top of a plan of ground with the store. You go in over there, you have to pick this, you have to pick up a spaghetti. There's that, so on and so forth kind of thing. Right Now, I can guarantee you most of our blue card workforce does not know what is a spaghetti, right, so the poor guy will go there and say S-P-A, right, and then he'll look at the packet and S-P-A and a chat, same right.

Amit Somani:

And it's gluten free spaghetti, If it's gluten free spaghetti.

Mukri:

if it's gluten free spaghetti, it's as simple as put up a photo. So something as simple as that. It's not unique like this thing, right? So some of this, the when we went to the retail you say, boss, they're just text based, right, something as simple as adding a photograph to your picking app was making the picker 30% efficient. And that was such a large cost at $15 an hour. Right, imagine, like that, $12 or $13 bucks an hour kind of thing. If you're saving 15% every delivery you're saving like $1.5.

Amit Somani:

Yeah, we did it all. Every penny matters.

Mukri:

So so. So this in the initial phase it was all about how do I do simple things that brings into value. None of this was unique. Like I said, I had a picture to the picking app and if you go and say, boss, what's this? I mean it's just a little bit of a, but it is adding value. So if it's ads value and if it's ads, it's not that people are going to pay for something unique people will pay if it's adding value to them, and adding value can be something as simple as adding up a picture to your app, right, and then all of a sudden, the picker becomes efficient. The guy who's managing the operations is saying, hey, I'm saving $1000 every day, and if you're saving $1000 every day, then if he asks that, give me a small portion on that, why will he not give that?

Mukri:

So, the initial it was all about simplicity and then getting the foot inside the door. Once you get in, then opportunities will always open up.

Amit Somani:

If you whatever is comfortable, can you share just some scale of where Zop? You know?

Mukri:

Zop's part is that now so altogether we will be north of 100 million Like this thing across all the US. So we don't have much as US. Middle East and Southeast Asia is where the this is the, the, the revenue will be there, Very healthy margins we operate of course, software business is like almost a 70 to 80% margin. Businesses is what we run, but the thing that we proud ourselves is not that like. Of course, the money is good and it's bootstrapped, so obviously like large ownership, large ownership so those things are like, certainly like you feel.

Mukri:

Sometimes you feel good about it, but I strongly come from the viewpoint that, like, best things in life are free, right, but it certainly helps us to do a lot of experiments in that it gives us the ability to take some like the risk, take some bets, kind of thing, like do some experiments and so on and so forth, kind of thing.

Amit Somani:

Absolutely. I have to ask you one more question about Zop's part, you know, before we jump into the last section of the podcast, which is how did you crack the US GTM Right, which is another big thing, especially at the ticket sizes that you're talking about?

Prime Venture Partners:

right.

Amit Somani:

Like a half a million million dollars quarter million for a retail software startup from India.

Mukri:

If you can share, just maybe a couple of points on that before we so one is like and as bad as it may sound, like, have you heard this one? Like?

Amit Somani:

I'll translate that in English I'll look there and then I'll realize. So I was slightly different.

Mukri:

Tejaswi is like great people right. For instance, our and your growth will be like IT, mit, it, bhu, ibm, google, so on and so forth. That's goth right. Because then people say so, tejaswi, sammane, khoste, goth, but like, yes, you don't look for respect by telling that I am XYZ, abcd, so on and so forth, so 100% does not apply to us, thankfully, like we had the right go through. So obviously, with the IT, mit, amazon, so on and so forth. I had that one, raju, also IIT what, and JP Morgan, so on and so forth. So this day, because she's also IIT Bombay, so we had the right go through. So for us, the US market was like with the right go through, which, but at some time you have to use it. Let's put this right. So what the right go through does for us, it helps you open the door, open the door.

Mukri:

Yeah so if you go to somebody I say I'm a mitzvah money, I worked at Google for this thing, I got the surge price, this that I was the CPU at McMurray. Now there's the people say so, the go through thing helped for us, right, the go through thing helped us in opening the door. And if you say I'm XYZ, so on and so forth kind of thing and you should use it, right, I had to use car. Don't go by what the saying is saying, but I'm saying I had to use car Loan and there's no, no harm in it, provided you have the right product Right. So for us, it was that the go through helped us in opening the door and then we feel well, we had the right product.

Mukri:

Now the challenge and which is where I like the US market is right that before a meeting like there is an incredible amount of preparation that, like every meeting that I go for for, call it to say a speech of this day, right, obviously the where minimize. You go through all the LinkedIn profile of the 78 people. For each of them, most of these people will have a YouTube video, so on and so forth. So I would go through like 30, 40 YouTube video. Then I go through the annual reports of that company for the last five six year quarterly report.

Mukri:

So there is at least a 200 to 300 hour of preparation before for that one, just one hour meet high level sales meeting, because after the once the go through opens up the door, right, you have hours within an hour, like you have to figure it out, right, and you don't want to figure out that. Use that out to figure out Because there's so many things, right, we have products around, pricing, efficiency, so on and so forth. So the annual reports, what they're saying, so on and so forth. You have to figure it out and then find you into the specific pain point that they have. Once they have the once you have figured it out, the pain point, then it's easy because now the go through has opened up the door. Then you go through those annual reports, so on and so forth, focus on one or two things that you know for sure has a high probability of resonating with them.

Mukri:

And then the process straight forward. Right, you, for most of these large companies, right, like doing a pilot for 50 K, 100 K is not a large, this thing. Like, if you are like multi-billion dollar company and such a mother, the cost of that meeting itself, if you have like seven to eight like VPs and SVP itself is like $15,000, right, so, so, so saying that, hey, let me do a 50K pilot for you, right, but then your product has to be stolen. So with the 7, 8 years of like hardcore product level up in India, people, so on and so forth, we said go ahead. And then that's how. So, at a very high level, that's what work for us Canada.

Amit Somani:

Absolutely no. So founders that are listening to this, this is absolute, not gold, platinum. And I mean even when you're pitching to VCs, whether it's Prime or anybody else, people don't even necessarily prepare for an hour, right, they have the deck. You made the deck, the same deck for, say, everybody you come to. So when you first told me that you spent 200 to 300 hours and I know not just what pedigree and go through you come from, but what the CPU or the GPU rating is right I mean that's a lot of preparation, right. So no wonder you were able to crack it to like 100 million ARR on a bootstrap startup. So, as we come to the close, mukri here, we could go on for hours, but maybe we'll get you back another time as well. What are some tips for current and aspiring founders based on your actual journey? One do perhaps One thing that you are doing and you would encourage everyone to do and one don't Like, don't do this for whatever reason.

Mukri:

For the founders, like one do. That I still practice would be look, go back to that, Senai ho jayenge paar maare, jayenge ravan Vijayyongi Ram, so on, so forth, and pul banayenge bandar kailayenge. Like, not in a day-to-day manner, is like I always feel the founders should have the right story in mind, and sometimes it's very tough to explain the story to the employees, right? So you should have the story in mind, like this is I'm doing this. Because of this, you can go to the Toyota 5s or whatever, right? The story should be crystal clear in your mind. Kanathir, translate the story into number for the employee, because for the rest of the organization, right, whether they understand the story, in all probability they won't be able to understand the story because you won't be able to communicate the story because some of these can't be communicated, right? So the story should be clear in your mind, but translate that story into real numbers that people can execute, because as an employee or even as strategic let's assume a CXO you'll say Boss, tell me a number, I'll run after it. Right, if you give me. Okay, boss, your goal is, I have the high level story in my mind. Trust me, this is there For that. Boss. You get to a 16 1 1⁄2% gross margin. You reduce your bottleneck with this thing. So the story should be clear in your mind. Translate the story into number. That magic always works out. Kanathir, right. So that will be the certainly do's that one do. That people should always do right.

Mukri:

Second, besides the money part, that don't do it for money, because so it's the second. On the first one itself, I would say don't be too greedy on the money part, right? Look, you have a chance to get into the history book. So if it means that the ISOP people has to be large, be it, because the guy who's putting in that 16 hours, he's equally smart, so on and so forth, right, both. The history book may not go right when you say Microsoft, right, how many VPs of Microsoft people know? Right. So my father who's? Well, yeah, he's just a Microsoft. Bill Gates, or maybe Satya Nadella, he won't even know who Steve Obama is? Kanathir, yes. So the one who's fighting so much. The ISOP people are very greedy, kanathir, right. So one is that that's the do's right, don'ts.

Mukri:

And again, this is totally extemporary and I may be totally wrong, but I'm not. I'm not. I'm totally wrong personally. Personally, from what I'm seeing in the ecosystem. I am dead against secondary, secondary like if there's one crime, like if I had the magic wine and if I have to stop it, I'll put a legal ban on secondary. Really, the reason why India will continue to produce good companies and not great companies is because for lack of a better word stupidity of secondary right. So Madhavi Burma's poem Chiritipti Kaamnaon Ka Karjata Jeevan Nishfal Bhushte hi Pyaas Amari, parme Virekthi Manjati. So Bhushte hi Pyaas Amari. The moment you take that half a glass of water. So it's like I mean, look at it, like what kind of insanity we're running through right Secondary people are making 5 million, 10 million. How do you expect the guy to?

Amit Somani:

Or do you as the founder for saying that? As we see, you know, we are told like hey, your incentive is not aligned, completely aligned. We put money in the company. Like you know, when everybody all the shareholders make money, you make money.

Mukri:

Correct, correct. So I am like dead, dead, dead against secondary, like dead against secondary.

Amit Somani:

I applaud you for that, applaud you.

Mukri:

I know there will be people who will be like this post is gonna go viral.

Amit Somani:

Okay, so you're gonna get hit mail from all the other founders, but I think you spoke the truth. No, I mean eventually, I mean you are as a founder if you're successful you are gonna make money. You're not doing this for charity. You're not doing this for.

Mukri:

So again, I'm not saying it for the sake of VC, anybody else yeah?

Amit Somani:

of course.

Mukri:

Just like, and that's, if I have to say one single reason why you are printing good companies, not great. If one single reason has to be pointed, or the secondary, because I can see, found us like give up, that's good. 10 million, five, whatever, right. After that his anger is over, right? He suddenly thinks of himself as a boss. The moment you are not stopped, right, you are so anyway. So yeah.

Amit Somani:

I mean, there are many interesting things about Mukri. I think he's run what 100 plus marathons.

Mukri:

Yeah, I think 130, 140.

Amit Somani:

130, 140,. Just came back from the Mumbai marathon a couple of weeks ago. Because why, with podcasts, has to be in February, not January? He reads prolifically. I like to think I read a lot, but he probably reads three X of what I do, maybe more, and he writes a lot. He just gifted me two books I wish I had gotten the podcast to show it here that he's written, which he's not even published on Amazon or anywhere else.

Mukri:

And that's only for friends and families.

Amit Somani:

Yeah, I know, I know, I know it doesn't have an ISBN code, et cetera, although he started your career selling books on Amazon, so it's ironic. But hey, so tell us maybe just a couple of your reading habits and your writing habits. How are you able to maintain it and what do you do? Any tips for people who are somewhat interested? If you're not even interested, you know this is not gonna happen.

Mukri:

So my reading habits certainly has changed a lot. Like writing has not changed a whole lot, but like this way of style, but the reading like, at least in the last few years, what I've seen is that previously I used to read a book. Now my habit has changed into reading a topic. So the issue that I started seeing by reading a book was right, the author has a viewpoint. So, for instance, I may feel that that hey, there is generally a water scarcity, right, and what happens is, since the author has done so much research and that specific version of the truth, right, that there's water scarcity, that after 300 pages like I'm not saying because he has done all the research, he's a smart guy, he's putting this thing, so you do that one kind of thing right. So what I started to feel was that the orthogonal topic and this came by Malcolm Gladner 10,000 hours 10,000 hours yeah.

Mukri:

You read a book which says that you practice for 10,000 hours and you will become a Virat Kohli kind of thing, right? And then, like a year down the line, you read a book it's all about genetics. So Michael Phelps' body structure is like, and that body structure is not there. So you'll spend 10,000 hours or 20,000 hours. So you forgot about the gold medal. Sports gene, yeah, sports gene, right. So yeah.

Mukri:

So I started feeling that, for instead of reading a book wherein the author has a viewpoint, I want to read a topic, and in the topic I want to see orthogonal viewpoints. So I want somebody to say that there's water scarcity. Here is the data. On the same note, I want somebody to say that what are you talking about? Water scarcity? 70% of the earth is water. And if you go to the Middle East, like reverse osmosis, say, whoa, look, salt water, fresh water, my car technology is improving. And after a few years, what is costing you 10 cents to make that money? Gallons of water will become like 0.5 cents. So what? This thing? Right? So it has changed from like books to topics, kind of things.

Mukri:

So that reading habit has changed and I like to read on various topics, right, it can be anything right. It can be water, it can be text, because most of the topics like if you go back to the old age, right, like whether it was a committee, is anybody right? There was no key, a math, say, a physics, a chemistry, subquash, subquash, right. The same guy was writing philosophy and the math and everything else, right, and I think that's fine, that there's nothing wrong with that. So, as I, so I, and there are learnings right From every topic. There's an immense amount of learning that you can take. So variety of topics instead of book under, read a topic, get the orthogonal views right. Writing I while I share some of the writing with friends and families kind of thing, and certainly very less publicly kind of thing, but writing primarily has been for me. I love to read what I wrote like 15 years back, 20 years back kind of thing, because it tells me that, however, it changed.

Amit Somani:

Where were you at that?

Mukri:

point what the last thing you want to do, and which all of us in some sense do, is I'm lying to myself, right? People say I don't think like that, right. But then you look at the writing. It was the Mukri of 2000, who wrote that, right? So it gives you a fact check, right, and some of it may not be very like pleasing, right, but at least you know, but at least you know that I was like that this is the change that has happened and this is it right. So writing is mostly for myself, so that I know, like how I changed some good, some bad, some ugly, so on and so forth. But at least I understand what type of person I am. Not everything about everybody is perfect, including me, All right, Mukri.

Amit Somani:

One last question If you could either shadow or spend a day or a dinner with one entrepreneur, surviving or otherwise, or even any leader, because you're so widely read and you follow so many people who would that be and why? So it's, the first name comes as.

Mukri:

Jeff Bezos.

Amit Somani:

But you already spend some time, some time, even though indirectly.

Mukri:

No, no. So in the current world, if I have to go through this thing, certainly Satya Nadella comes like one, because I truly believe like the way he has transformed Microsoft from where it was what he got to where it is and Microsoft at least when we were looking at it in 90s and early 2000s some of the very close company. The way he has brought that openness in that company is amazing. So if I have to like now that I'll get that opportunity, but if I have to pick up one person, certainly it was going to be him, because I truly admire the way he has transformed that company kind of thing. And I still have a bunch of friends at Microsoft. You can hear from them that after Satya has come, these are the changes that are happening, so on and so on, and it's not a small company. It's not a small company?

Amit Somani:

No, it's not small. It's now the most valuable company in the world.

Mukri:

So the way he has transformed that company, like forgot about the valuations one and so forth right, just here, boss, who image battle the idea from where it was to where it is like, of course it's reflecting the financials more than the financials.

Amit Somani:

The attitude and the culture.

Mukri:

Is the cassette. But like that kind of thing, like it's simply amazing.

Amit Somani:

Hey, thanks a ton, Mukri. Thanks for being on the Prime Venture Partners podcast. Always a delight to hang out with you. You enjoyed this Perfect.

Prime Venture Partners:

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